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Author Topic: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species  (Read 1828 times)

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whiteymalone

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Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« on: July 19, 2017, 10:14:44 PM »

Check these fish out! They have fins like a flying fish, and they bend like a burbot. Not to mention the awesome mottling.

 
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Dan Webb
Boat: Webb-Cast.Net
Home Port: Cinder Pond Marina

Dire Wolf

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 10:13:32 AM »

Probably a morphotype and not a sub-species...

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/fisheries/scientific-pubs/p-2007-2.pdf

of particular interest is Figure 4. Sub-surface current gyres.

Basically, "genetic drift" accounts for what these guys are catching.  Common on sea mounts in the ocean.  One of the reasons for the offshore planting of lake trout on reefs in Lake Michigan's basin.  These sites are geographically isolated to the point of being small eco-types within the larger lake basin.
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someone11

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 06:01:23 PM »

Probably a morphotype and not a sub-species...

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/fisheries/scientific-pubs/p-2007-2.pdf

of particular interest is Figure 4. Sub-surface current gyres.

Basically, "genetic drift" accounts for what these guys are catching.  Common on sea mounts in the ocean.  One of the reasons for the offshore planting of lake trout on reefs in Lake Michigan's basin.  These sites are geographically isolated to the point of being small eco-types within the larger lake basin.

Arent these the ciscowets, aka FAT's?
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-Nick

Tin Lizzy

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2017, 12:12:05 AM »

It appears that they were at Superior Shoals.  Definitely a different look to the fish.  The meat is also a little different color, like a pinkish white.  Not the white like a regular fat has.  But they do taste good.   
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Rod

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 06:54:11 AM »

Rod, do you know if Lucas Lanzy's lake trout still on display at the Hilltop? A couple physicians I used to call on maintained that Duncan was fishing Superior Shoals that day.  Assuming you are correct on the pectoral fins being significantly enlarged on SS located lake trout, if Lucas' fish lacks this characteristic, then it likely was not from SS. What I was told when his dad contacted me regarding his tug-of-war with the MDNR over where the mount would end up, was that Duncan ran-in to Copper Harbor to get the fish to the nearest certified scales set, asking someone to reposition his trailer during the run in from Stannard's reef complex.  One of these guys claimed to have seen the boat and trailer coming down through the Keweenaw on its way back south to Duncan's home.

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-016-0788-8

Sorry, they truncated the abstract on this one:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00028487.2014.900823

Nick, I can't find the study right now and have to go in for a physical and blood work this morning...   I'll post the link, if I can locate it again.  Essentially, the researchers used water movement pattern maps and matched these up with genetic testing results for lake trout basin-wide in Lake Superior.  They found that water movement patterns influenced the genetic makeup of the fish within that discrete tier or block of water, which makes sense since larvae would be blown around on the ambient currents, dispersing fish with that cell of water.  When they mapped the genetically similar lake trout samples on the basin and overlaid them on the discrete current cells, they were a near-perfect fit within each cell of interconnected water movement.

Now, if you do a little "reading-in"; morphometric variances appear to be driven, or at least influenced, by depth strata in the above articles.  Water movement is influenced by: seasonal ambient water temperature, wind vector (velocity interrelated with direction), duration of a "blow", depth, basin fetch orientation, AND basin morphometry.
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Tin Lizzy

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 09:07:22 PM »

Rick, I do believe that it is still at the hilltop.  Was never impressed with the mount job done to such an incredible fish.  Having fished the shoals a few times, it seemed to me that the small "stunted" fish, which by far outnumber the larger fish, tended to have the more pronounced pectoral fins.  I have seen pictures of a few fish in the high 30's to mid 40 lb range from the "shoals" that didn't seem to have abnormally large fins.  My theory is that most of the lakers out there are stunted, and a few of them are just a smidgen bigger and end up becoming cannibals.  That being the difference as to why a few of them get to be so darn big.  A buddy of mine has caught lakers out there with smaller lakers in their throats.   
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Rod

Super Yooper

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 10:08:08 PM »

We stopped in at Hilltop on Thursday and the mount was still there  :thmb:
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Bill Artwich
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Dire Wolf

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 07:20:00 AM »

Talk to Shawn Sitar sometime, he can give you a rundown of everything they have recovered from lake trout stomachs, including cigarette butts!

https://www.mackinac.org/3963

This case was active when Lucas caught that fish.  His father was one of the active supporters of the Delenes. When Jim Peck told him the MDNR would take the fish and send it down to Ann Arbor, Bela moved it to a taxidermy shop recommended by a fellow physician in Wisconsin. 

He called me and told me the general story of the catch and his conversation with the MDNR Great Lakes biologist.  At the time, I thought he had overreacted. I was interested in trying to get the otoliths out of the back of the skull case and finding some group that would be interested in doing a contaminants work-up on the viscera.  I contacted Ron Kinnunen from Michigan Sea Grant, who was VERY willing to take the organs and send them down to the Pesticide Research Center's lab. at MSU.  They were the group that drove switching from whole body analysis over to working-up pesticide burden in the fillets, since this is what humans consumed.

I stopped at the Marquette Fish Hatchery to try and cajole Jim Peck into contacting Bela Lanczy and being a TON more diplomatic and conciliatory, since the fish represented a data point far older than anything they had for lake trout... it may have been anywhere from the high twenties to over fifty years old.  I was amazed at the level of "attitude" Mr.Peck displayed.  He essentially told me that he was so busy, as well as being overworked, that he could care less what happened to the fish. By then I was pretty disgusted by the near-absolute lack of scientific curiosity he displayed.  I thanked him for underscoring most of the reasons that moved me to walk away from fishery biology research, and left.

I eventually got Bela to give me the contact information for the taxidermy shop.  When I called them to tell them I would be down along the Mi/Wi border in a handful of days and would be very interested in the interior of the skull case and contents, as well as the guts.  I was told that they had already skinned the fish and tossed everything.

What a very sad waste of a very noteworthy fish...
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someone11

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 07:46:25 PM »

So are the fish in the video FATs or no? To me they look just like a FAT.
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-Nick

Vertigo

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 10:21:43 PM »

In Munising at the Pictured Rocks Interprative Center is a fish that looks like that and labeled as a "humper" says supposedly found out off deepwater shoals off shore? Not sure exactly how it was phrased or if it was a local term? I had not heard that reference before.
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Kevin Goodman

someone11

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 11:38:53 PM »

In Munising at the Pictured Rocks Interprative Center is a fish that looks like that and labeled as a "humper" says supposedly found out off deepwater shoals off shore? Not sure exactly how it was phrased or if it was a local term? I had not heard that reference before.
Its just a nickname they get due to their shape, at least I think thats where it comes from. The guys around here call them that sometimes.
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-Nick

Dire Wolf

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 06:12:22 AM »

So are the fish in the video FATs or no? To me they look just like a FAT.

IF you can identify a "Fat" at high frequency just by looking at it swimming around, you are far better than me at fish I.D., or just overly confident!  I wonder what you would have called the hatchery stock fish that the Keweenaw Band tossed in the Lower Harbor a few springs back on first inspection?


Applying your approach would result in calling them redfins...See Figure 2.


https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-016-0788-8
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Redrover

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 12:34:11 PM »

It is truly disconcerting that no one at the dnr asked or that carcass.
There is a lot of data on board that would help to answer answer many questions.
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someone11

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 12:20:27 PM »

So are the fish in the video FATs or no? To me they look just like a FAT.

IF you can identify a "Fat" at high frequency just by looking at it swimming around, you are far better than me at fish I.D., or just overly confident!  I wonder what you would have called the hatchery stock fish that the Keweenaw Band tossed in the Lower Harbor a few springs back on first inspection?


Applying your approach would result in calling them redfins...See Figure 2.


https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-016-0788-8

For creel, we only have to identify leans vs FATs. So in the picture below the top and bottom fish would be marked FAT. If we are unsure whether its a FAT or lean it gets marked as FAT. Its just the way they run the stat program. Guys on the vessel (lake Char) would have to identify it better than we do.

r
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-Nick

Dire Wolf

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Re: Really interesting Lake Trout sub species
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 05:14:18 PM »

Per this protocol the would be designated as the Humper morphotype/ecotype, further diluting the utility of the data...

Don't be distressed, the Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission doesn't even require the commercial fishers to record siscowets as fish, so they don't actually count against the TAC grid allotment value and are not required to be tagged-pretty sad exploitation of the resource.
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