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Author Topic: Deer management plans  (Read 21074 times)

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Dire Wolf

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2015, 06:34:03 AM »

You can drive 30 miles in the UP and see extreme variations in antler growth and development. APR's don't make sense to me. Political move to please interest groups in my mind. Forces primitive hunters to adapt to technology also. Some areas just can't grow big deer and some areas grow big deer in 2 years. The recipe for growing trees fast is good soil and warm climate. This applies to deer also. If you hunt a jack pine outwash in the northern UP - you better hope that alot of other people don't hunt it either because your pool of nice bucks is alot smaller than someone who hunts farm fields in the southern UP. Or hope there is a big food source nearby.

1 deer only - when you are done you are done - any sex or size- your choice what you shoot. Bow and gun season combined. Extra doe tags when and where needed to control population levels. Quotas set yearly. Lottery system and leftover sales if not filled.

Open season Nov 15-Nov 30 on coyote and wolf.  Base license covers it. I am sure our managers support something similar but it is kind of out of their hands again for both legal and political matter.

End bow hunting with end of muzzle season. Way too easy to kill or wound deer in the yard or on active logging jobs.

Lost licenses - loose it you are done.

Fines - perfect under the new system. example : Will cost you $7,000 if you illegally harvest an 8-point buck, plus jail time, court fees, and loss of hunting licenses for years. + $500 for each point over that.

Solution to the lost funding problem DNR may face by going to 1 license - "Trophy tag-like the idea" - however - allow anyone to purchase this tag upon registering their deer they got on their "1 deer" tag. Mandatory registration may be a burden on the DNR, but there is always somebody at some DNR office to do it during business hours. Whether it is a biologist, technician, forester, secretary, fire officer. Everyone could easily be trained to do this. Make the "trophy tag" very expensive and designate a certain amount per DMU. If you are greedy and need more than 1 deer, or messed up and shot something smaller than you desired - you should have to pay for it greatly.

I think alot of people have to realize: A certain piece of land or water is only capable of producing a certain amount of fish/deer of a certain size. It can not produce any more or any bigger. Minor changes in the way we do things can influence this to an extent, but we are never going to have the deer/fish numbers / size in the UP like there is down south whatever direction you go. What we do have is less people, and be thankful for that. That is what helps us grow bigger fish / deer in alot of our unproductive areas or those with harsh environmental conditions.

Come on, the U.P. has the same spodosols and histosols that exist in northern lower Michigan, essentially north of a line from Clare to Big Rapids!
http://geo.msu.edu/extra/geogmich/soils.h

I suggest you take a look at what Dr. Kroll's group has accomplished on the Turtle Lake Hunt Club property in that area...yes, you are right, a certain parcel of land is capable of producing a certain density of deer and habitat, both summer and winter, will determine that carrying capacity.

Yes, a jack pine outwash is not good deer habitat. Per your Department's data, jack pine is only 10% of the forest ecotypes in the U.P, with jackpine outwash monocultures very infrequent in occurence. I see you opted to cite jackpine barrens, which essentially are mainly dominant in Crawford County to underscore your point.  Those jack pine ares in the U.P. are interrspersed by oak and aspen. Altering the number of bucks an individual hunter CAN kill, as well as post-gun season hunting seasons generates a few thousand deer a year that don't get killed. Restoring quality habitat, particularly winter habitat adds tens of thousands( over the last fifteen years, the U.P. deer herd has declined by 60%). Actually, one of the factors in John Ozoga's departure from the MDNR was their intransigence regarding adoption of QDM prinicpals. John said one thing to me that continues to resonate: If you get a deer to adulthood, it is pretty hard to starve that animal to death, if it has adequate winter forage, even in a hard winter. You may end-up with very low fawn production in the spring, from still born or low body weight fawns, but those does will likely survive if they have access to quality forbes at spring green-up.  Nearly twenty years ago, he wrote a piece on the decline of winter habitat in the U.P., and the need to focus on its regeneration;largely ignored by his employer.

As Sam H. states, the value of access to agricultural crops is quite beneficial to deer, if, they have already developed the enteric bacteria that enable them to digest cellulose. I'll use his example to argue a different scenario. Snowfall came early last November in quantity. Deer moved to winter habitat complexes that were too few and in poor quality, rather than linger artificially around bait piles. Those winter habitat complexes were inadequate to enable large numbers of adult animals to survive both the severity and duration of the winter of 2014-15.  Per Bob Doepker's study, 65% of the U.P. deer herd in the U.P.,over the time interval of his assessment, have existed on 35% of the land area- dominated by agricultural properties. So what "dirt" have the deer declined in? Those geographies where the deer herd relies on winter habitat for a portion of its survival...

The other thing that would have to change is the hide-bound mentality of: brown, deer, buck, bang!

Since Star Wars is back in the media hype, I'll steal that old Yoda quote: "You either do, or do not. There is no try!" We as hunters have allowed our State management agency to manage deer populations in this geography to the lowest common denominator on a statewide basis. That has to change, or we will continue this cycle.
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youp50

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2015, 08:52:34 AM »

Much of John Ozoga's work is excellent and some simply does not apply to a wild, snowbelt  deer herd.

He has done some wonderful math explaining how the buck/doe ratio cannot get a skewed as we observe.  Observations; the buck fawn are among the first to starve in a bad winter.  The doe will abort in a bad winter. All these affect buck recruitment.

Likewise his observations on an adult starving are very valid.  In the late 70's and early 80's the deer I observed in the west end tended to be adults.  Many were the heavy racked bucks that still grace many drinking establishments. 

Enter the timber wolf.  Now a wild adult deer has a very real additional mortality factor.  Add in plenty of coyotes and a few large bobcats, a growing population of cougars...

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Yea, we caught a couple little ones.

B and D fishing team

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2015, 07:45:37 PM »

     youp50 you forgot to mention the doe season in the 2 southern county's.  They the DNR never should of had a doe season.  They admit there was a bad winter kill for 2 years but they still had the doe season. Just don't understand their way of thinking.   
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little buddy

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2015, 08:08:31 PM »

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ think they actually care about the herd?
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Adam
Little Buddy
Id rather be lucky than good!

always gone

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2015, 09:21:30 PM »


"So what "dirt" have the deer declined in? Those geographies where the deer herd relies on winter habitat for a portion of its survival..." quote

Pretty much all the dirt we hunt on - but you are right.

I don't disagree that the combination of these 4 items- (1) acreage loss of winter yarding areas (2) quality of these areas (3) increase of predators in these areas (4) and harsh climates...... is the number 1 reason for the decline of the population. I agree 100%. It is why the population is low. Put simply - It's cold, they don't have as many places to stay warm with suitable food nearby, and things try to kill them there. The overall carrying capacity of the UP is lowered. The dirt comment was more geared towards antler development.

What we can do to help this issue and 4 items is: (1) Maintain closed canopy conifer cover types in traditional deer yarding areas. If you are a private landowner - don't cut your cedar or hemlock stand in the deer yard. While you might need money for it, consider selling a conservation easement on it or the land itself. (2) Create winter food sources in yarding areas. Supplemental feeding or planting of various shrubs / crops to sustain deer through the winter. (3) increase of predators - no comment......use your imagination.....(4)  harsh climate - ???? not much - Anyone that really wants to find quality antlers would hunt in a warmer climate with more nutrition. But, we live in the UP - we do have some kick ass fishing compared to the rest of the US - be thankful for that.

Trophy deer require good nutrition and a lack of predators (man or other). One without the other will produce trophy deer, but both in combination is what I would look for.


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Adam Petrelius

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2015, 10:21:58 PM »

I don't know if anyone has noticed but Canada has had the same harsh winters that we have had and have more of a wolf/predator  problem with major winter kill yet Canada notices the problem and shortened the season for residents and cut the tags by almost half. As far as the comment "if you want trophy deer go south where its warmer" I don't agree with that. Deer don't have a chance to get big here, Canada is colder than us and have many trophy deer. Actually we have many trophy deer too, just harder to find due to pressure. Speaking of pressure how many people got the big buck on their cam that they checked for 2 months straight? I would assume not too many.

Ironically the kick ass fishing you speak of is based solely on mother nature and natural reproduction in the great lakes. Almost every area inland lake that depends on stocking efforts in the U.P is disaster thanks to improper management, greed by "sportsmen" and lack of stocking with our fish dollars. When I was growing up the options were endless. Now its just, the end.

SnIpEr

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2015, 11:09:16 PM »

Enforcement:  Who saw a warden this year?



I see one a few time a week. My Father in law is a retired CO  grin()

But besides him I have never seen one in the woods. Just imagine if you never saw a cop.  How many would go the speed limit/ not break the law???

always gone

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2015, 11:11:17 PM »

The fishing is kick ass...when compared to many places in the US. Yes, Canada has many trophy deer- their part of the equation - lack of pressure. If bucks dont get pressured they can get big.

Does anyone disagree that if you head south from the UP....to warmer climate, more agriculture (downstate, Ohio, Kentucky...wherever) the likelyhood of seeing a trophy buck may increase?...

Yes we have plenty of trophy's up here, thankfully we dont have the pressure the other places do. That is why our deer get big. Age - where nutrition is absent.
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Adam Petrelius

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2015, 11:20:02 PM »

Does anyone disagree that if you head south from the UP....to warmer climate, more agriculture (downstate, Ohio, Kentucky...wherever) the likelyhood of seeing a trophy buck may increase?...

Nope, not at all. But I know a lot more guys that head North to Canada than South. Yes, the likelihood of getting a trophy down south is greater but chances are your shooting it off someone's mega chunk of private land that manages those deer all year.

always gone

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2015, 11:28:38 PM »

Exactly people people travel north to get away from the pressure. And it's a hell of a lot more enjoyable which is the number one reason why we hunt. The UP does produce great numbers of trophy deer. Just like river fishing, the first one there to the spot gets the trophy. If the spot is well known you better be there first, if the spot isn't well known and less pressured you better know where it is. You have to figure out your prey or figure out your competition.
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Adam Petrelius

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2015, 11:39:17 PM »

http://www.mackinacbridge.org/index.php?action=archived&artid=33

Found this interesting article in the DNR archives.

Note at the bottom of the page that most of the deer in 1999 registered at the bridge were 1.5 year old bucks. Not many trophies? This is a big reason why and its been going on forever. Big mature deer can survive harsh winters as long as they aren't hurt.  Like Rick said the brown its down attitude has been around forever. People come up for a long weekend from WI or the L.P and shoot the first thing with 3" spikes and head back home to hunt for their big deer.

SnIpEr

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2015, 12:01:36 AM »

Just like river fishing, the first one there to the spot gets the trophy. If the spot is well known you better be there first, if the spot isn't well known and less pressured you better know where it is. You have to figure out your prey or figure out your competition.

Not necessarily.  Maybe the 2nd or 3rd guy is a better river fisherman than the guy that got there first... grin()

Vertigo

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2015, 12:23:44 AM »

Not sure what is being considered as big or trophy deer but the UP does not have an abundance of deer that I consider trophy especially after hunting other areas. Really the whole harvest isn't much more accurate here than throwing a dart at a board full of numbers. The Southern State we hunt has a telecheck system and the web page is updated daily. They are able to track the deer harvest and most counties now if not all have adopted a 4 point on a side Law. In several years we harvested with bow bigger bucks than we have here in combined over 60 years of hunting with deer weighing over 200#. I have personally seen bucks every year in the 120"-170" range.
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Kevin Goodman

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2015, 12:35:56 AM »

Not sure what is being considered as big or trophy deer but the UP does not have an abundance of deer that I consider trophy especially after hunting other areas. Really the whole harvest isn't much more accurate here than throwing a dart at a board full of numbers. The Southern State we hunt has a telecheck system and the web page is updated daily. They are able to track the deer harvest and most counties now if not all have adopted a 4 point on a side Law. In several years we harvested with bow bigger bucks than we have here in combined over 60 years of hunting with deer weighing over 200#. I have personally seen bucks every year in the 120"-170" range.

A trophy to a lot of people is a decent 6 or 8. Not everyone cares about getting a 150" deer or putting the time and $$$ in to getting one. I have never seen a disappointed hunter that shot a decent 8.  And yes, there are plenty of 120" plus bucks up here. Maybe not where you hunt but there is.

Is this land you hunt in Missouri private?

Vertigo

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Re: Deer management plans
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2015, 03:27:00 AM »

It is private with no other management plan other than the 4 point on a side law. Big difference to is agriculture there are lots of coyotes and I see more there in a week than 10 yrs( uneducated guess) here. However the blue tongue disease is reducing deer numbers in the area we hunt to what looks like a terribly low number. So it will have to be seen what happens there now??
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Kevin Goodman
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